Chris Katulka:
Heaven is something that I think a lot of Christians have a perception of that isn't rooted in the scriptures. I think a lot of us have this idea, and I had it too, that heaven is a place that when you die, you kind of get your wings, you get your harp that you've never known how to play before, but now all of a sudden you're a rock star on the harp and you sit on a cloud and you kind of float off into eternity.

Steve Conover:
This is the Friends of Israel today. I'm Steve Conover and with me is Chris Katulka. As the year comes to a close, we've been sharing with you an opportunity to impact lives through this radio program. First, we're asking that you tell others about the teaching you hear through the Friends of Israel today. If it's been a blessing to you, share that with your friends and help multiply this ministry. Second, prayerfully consider a gift so we can continue to bring these truths to you and others as well.

Chris Katulka:
Steve, we're in our final month here, our final push to raise $10,000 to meet our financial goals for the year end and really we want to thank those that have already contributed. Your gift will help us reach people around the globe with our message of truth to bless the Jewish people. If the Lord leads you and you believe Christians need to hear the truth about Israel and the Jewish people, help us reach our goal of $10,000 before the end of 2019. Any amount will be a blessing to our program and thank you for supporting the Friends of Israel today.

Chris Katulka:
To give to the Friends of Israel today, simply go to foiradio.org that's FOI as in Friends of Israel radio.org. You can call our listener line at (888) 343-6940, again, that's (888) 343-6940 or you can write to us at FOI radio, PO Box 914 Belmar, New Jersey 08099. One more time, that's FOI radio, PO Box 914 Belmar, New Jersey 08099. Now listen, we're switching things up a little bit here. Today actually Steve's going to be asking me the questions. We're looking at our most recent issue of Israel, my glory here. This is our IMG Israel, my glory in depth episode and it's all about heaven. And so today Steve's going to be asking me some questions about an article that I wrote in our most recent issue. But first let's take a look at the news.

Steve Conover:
MasterCard announced its MasterCard index of women entrepreneurs, which highlights the markets where women entrepreneurs are most likely to thrive. According to data from international organizations that include the International Labor Organization, UNESCO and the global entrepreneurship monitor, Israel ranked number four in the world for providing a market environment for women entrepreneurs to succeed. They were only edged out by the United States, New Zealand and Canada.

Chris Katulka:
The polling was huge. 80% the world markets were looked at according to the data and of the 80% of the world markets, the economic markets, Israel is number four, which is amazing. But I want to look at it from this angle. The MasterCard, the credit card company does a better job of telling the truth about Israel than the United nations who in 2019 has given Israel 16 human rights violations; the most of any other country. Meanwhile, Iran, Syria, Russia and North Korea each only have one violation.

Chris Katulka:
Israel is a true Testament to women power in the Middle East and really throughout the entire world.

Steve Conover:
Chris, you wrote a terrific article for our magazine recently, so I'm excited to turn the tables on you a bit and ask you some questions. Our latest issue of Israel, My Glory Magazine is all about heaven. Heaven is such an important part of a Christian's faith, but you seem to indicate that most people have a distorted perception of heaven. Why do you think that is?

Chris Katulka:
Heaven is something that I think a lot of Christians have a perception of that isn't rooted in the scriptures. I think a lot of us have this idea, and I had it too, that heaven is a place that when you die, you know you kind of get your wings, you get your halo, you get your harp that you've never known how to play before, but now all of a sudden you're a rock star on the harp and you sit on a cloud and you kind of float off into eternity.

Chris Katulka:
And really there couldn't be anything further from the truth. And that's why I think this is such an important issue that we're talking about here when it comes to heaven in our most recent issue of Israel, My Glory, because I think the perception is all wrong. I actually think by the end of this episode, there's going to be a lot of people going, I never thought about heaven in this way because heaven isn't just about floating away. It's actually much greater than that. And it's giving us the idea of how we look at the scriptures to understand what heaven really is.

Steve Conover:
Yes, I've faced the distorted view, but how do you think this misunderstanding of heaven crept into the church?

Chris Katulka:
It's actually quite fascinating. You actually have to go back to a period prior to Jesus and it actually comes from a Greek philosophy called platonic philosophy, which looked at the philosophy of Plato and really Plato plays an amazing role in how we understand heaven. You see Plato, he had this view that there was a better place to go to, that what you see on earth is technically corrupt.

Chris Katulka:
The flesh is corrupt. The seats that you're sitting on in some way are corrupt. And so Plato has this theory that everything's kind of falling apart on earth and that's bad. But that there is this place, this distant place, doesn't know where it is, it's called the theory of forms that Plato has, where there is the perfect chair, where there is the perfect elements of earth that define what the things that we see on earth are. It's sometimes called the theory of ideas or the theory or ideals or forms. And so Plato's idea here, his philosophy creeps into early Christianity because here's the thing that's interesting. Plato actually believed that the flesh was bad and corrupt and the soul was good. And by doing that, he is segmenting the flesh, our bodies from our souls, the flesh, the body, bad, the soul, good. And that's really going to make up a lot of what Plato's ideas are and that gets moved into early Christianity. And there were early Christians that really had adopted Plato's theory of Greek philosophy into early Christian philosophy, but I don't think it's right.

Steve Conover:
If Plato's view of heaven is wrong, then what can we know about heaven from the Bible?

Chris Katulka:
Well, that's the big thing. So do we have a Greek philosophy of heaven or do we have a Jewish philosophy of heaven, a Jewish understanding of heaven? These are competing worldviews. Because see, when Plato was talking about this theory of forms, there's a distant place somewhere far away where things are better, the soul is good, there's a perfect place, we're at a realm that's distant from this earth that's falling apart. That sounds like a lot of Christian views of heaven, but see, the Jewish view of heaven is completely different.

Chris Katulka:
You know the flesh in Jewish theology, the flesh in Jewish understanding is actually good. When God created heaven and earth and all the animals in mankind, He didn't look at it and go, it's all right. When He created Adam and Eve, He looked at it and said, this is good. This is very good. And here's the difference between really what Plato's theory is and what the Bible I believe teaches is that the body and the soul are not divided. They're actually meant to be incorporated into one that when God made Adam, He formed him out of the dust of the earth and then He breathed his life into him giving that body life. You need the breath of God in you, the soul aspect. They are intertwined into one another. And so really the difference, the understanding of heaven has more to do with your body and your soul becoming what God intended it to be from the very beginning.

Chris Katulka:
One of the quotes I have from the article is that if you want to see what heaven is really supposed to look like, the clearest picture of heaven is in the garden of Eden. When God is walking with Adam and Eve, He's not walking with Adam and Eve in this... Adam and Eve aren't these spirits that are walking around. They are humans with a soul and God valued both of them. So really I think the issue is looking at it either from a Greek philosophy, which I think is wrong, or a Jewish philosophy, which I think is actually more biblical.

Steve Conover:
Chris, this is incredibly helpful and insightful. We'll take a quick break and turn our conversation to heaven in light of prophecy and Christ return.

Chris Katulka:
Today we've been talking about heaven from our current issue of Israel, my glory magazine. Another great resource we offer is Mark Hitchcock's book, Heavenly Rewards. When we think about heaven, the good news is salvation cannot be earned. It's already yours in Christ Jesus.

Steve Conover:
Ensure heaven is about spending eternity with God being with Him. But how does your faithfulness to God today determine the rewards you receive in heaven? Hitchcock's book, Heavenly Rewards will uncover fascinating truths about how the life you live today determines your life in eternity.

Chris Katulka:
To purchase your copy of Heavenly Rewards, visit us foiradio.org, that's foiradio.org. We'll have a link on our homepage. Or you can call our listener line at (888) 343-6940 and someone will return your call during our regular business hours. Again, that's (888) 343-6940. To order in Canada, call (888) 664-2584, again for Canada, that's (888) 664-2584.

Steve Conover:
Chris, we've been talking about and comparing the Greek and Jewish views of heaven, so I'll ask you this. What's going to happen in the future at Christ return?

Chris Katulka:
This is the crux part. Remember we talked about the idea that in in Jewish philosophy and Jewish understanding, especially from the scriptures, is that heaven isn't this distant place that you go to where you float on a cloud, that's actually very related to Greek philosophy, but that Jewish philosophy actually values the body. It values the soul uniquely knit together. I actually believe that as believers, our hope in heaven is actually our resurrection. That there's a day coming when a believer will come out of the grave and we'll see God face to face. You weren't meant to see God just in its spirit form. You were meant to exist and worship God in fleshes. He created Adam and Eve.

Chris Katulka:
And so I believe resurrection is the thing that actually defines us. Can I just read for you really quick. A very popular passage that I'm sure we all know, John 3:16, for this is the way God loved the world, He gave his one and only son so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. The question there is, what is eternal life?

Chris Katulka:
I actually think Jesus is pulling from Daniel 12 in the very beginning there in verses one and two, and in verse two Daniel says this, "Many of those who sleep", that's those who are dead, "many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake." That's resurrection. The body that's dead in the ground will awake and come back alive. Some to everlasting life, that's eternal life, and some to shame and everlasting [inaudible 00:12:55].

Chris Katulka:
So this idea of everybody resurrects, this is what the hope is, this is what heaven is, that one day we will come bursting out of the grave for the believers in Christ, this happens at the rapture of the church, but there's going to be several resurrections that take place. Ultimately, everybody stands before God resurrected. Everyone is judged in their flesh, but that's the ultimate goal is that heaven is when God, think about this, God comes down to earth. The new Jerusalem comes down to earth. When Jesus Christ comes in a second coming, He comes down to earth and we are with him. And heaven isn't this place that you go to far, far away. It's actually, I believe, going to be right here on earth as everything is redeemed and resurrected. Read Romans chapter eight, even creation is waiting for this moment, the longing for resurrection to take place. New life, I believe that's right here on earth when we will walk with God face to face. And so for Christ's second coming, I believe we'll be with him in flesh as He comes and he reigns on earth. We'll be in our resurrected bodies. This is in many ways heaven.

Chris Katulka:
In modern Hebrew, if you ask somebody, are you going to heaven? In modern Hebrew, heaven is [Hebrew 00:14:19] which is the garden of Eden. So if you ask somebody in modern Hebrew, are you going to heaven? You're actually asking them, are you going to the garden of Eden, which is the idea of God's presence with man on earth, on his creation.

Steve Conover:
Chris, before we move on, something that's probably on many of our listeners hearts, certainly on mine. What about those that have gone before us, those Christians that have already passed?

Chris Katulka:
Yeah, we're talking about this idea of heaven being God on earth with us, our resurrected bodies, that's the hope. Jesus being the first fruits of the resurrection, that means that we're all anticipating to be resurrected. That's what that means. But what about those people that have died and are they in heaven? Is that called heaven? Yes. The apostle Paul says, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. But let me make this little caveat here. That's not heaven forever. That's just a waiting period. Your loved ones are in the presence of the Lord right now, but that's not the end goal. The end goal, according to the scriptures, is that one day your loved ones and you will see each other face to face as you saw each other before that when you hug your loved one, you're not going to be running through them like spirits, you will see them as they were. You will hug them, you will feel them, you will touch them just as you did in the past. And so yes, we're absent from the body, present with the Lord right now, but the hope, the anticipation of a Christian is that one day we will come bursting out of the grave.

Steve Conover:
Israel, on the verge of becoming a state, a teenage Holocaust survivor arrives on the shores alone. His name is Zvi Kalisher. Little did he know his search for a new life in the Holy land would lead him to the Messiah. Zvi enthusiastic to share his faith engaged others in spiritual conversations, many of which can be found in our magazine, Israel, My Glory. While Zvi is now in the presence of his savior, is collected writings from well over 50 years of ministry, continue to encourage believers worldwide. Now, Apples of Gold, a dramatic reading from the life of Zvi.

Speaker 3:
I recently noticed several posters announcing a famous rabbi would be speaking at our community center. He was scheduled to appear at 8:00 PM, but it did not arrive until 9:00 PM, more than 300 people were waiting to see their hero. When he finally came, everyone stood and cheered. He spoke about the fictitious stories passed down from generation to generation, nothing new. He concluded by saying the most important thing that you can do is study the writings of our fathers, which he stated is even more important than having faith in God. The people listen to him as if he had been sent from heaven. Although I knew the crowd would go against me if I spoke up, I silently prayed asking the Lord to give me courage. And then I rose to my feet, I said to the rabbi, "Please explain how knowledge can be more important than faith in God when the scriptures clearly tell us the just shall live by his faith." I continued. "Do you have some kind of an insurance policy to get you into heaven? What about our father Abraham? He never went to a great university, but the scriptures say he believed in the Lord and he had coded it to him for righteousness. Was Abraham's faith in God have no value because he did not go to a great school and study all his life?"

Speaker 3:
The rabbi now was very unhappy because I had diverted everyone's attention away from him. Almost all were looking at me waiting to hear what I would say next. The rabbi asked me to explain what I meant. The Lord reminded me of Hebrews 11, I shared all the things our forefathers experienced because of their faith in God. I told them, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, but without faith, it is impossible to please him.

Speaker 3:
The rabbi was growing nervous. He said, the posters advertised my speech. You have no right to take this bud light away from me. Everyone was quiet, even the body guards who were listening to me instead of to him. I was surprised, but I knew it was the Lord's doing. The rabbi said, "Explain how you arrived at your strange beliefs." I said, "Wisdom is good, but wisdom without faith is useless. How can you point others to God if you do not consider faith as important as knowledge." And then I asked the crowd, "Who is greater? The wisest professor who has no faith or a man who has spent his life in the desert, but is faithful to the Lord?" Most responded, "The one from the desert." "You're correct", I said. "Isaiah 43 says, the voice of one crying in the wilderness, prepare the way of the Lord, make straight to the desert a highway for our God."

Speaker 3:
This voice did not come from Oxford university, but from the Judean desert. The rabbi was now furious. He said, "You have wasted my valuable time. I never want to see you at one of my meetings again." He then stomped off the stage. I was happy these people had listened to me with such interest and patience. I would never have believed such a thing could happen, but the Lord is able to do the impossible. I pray the small seed that was planted in that large group will grow into a great fruitful tree.

Chris Katulka:
I want to remind our listeners to be sure to go to foiradio.org. If you're not a subscriber to our magazine, Israel, My Glory, you can get a one year free subscription by simply going to foiradio.org and right there on our homepage you'll find the link that will connect you to our one year free subscription, that's six issues of Israel, My Glory and you'll get this issue heaven and how to get there. Our latest issue of Israel, My Glory, our November, December issue. Now listen, we are... like I said earlier in the beginning of the program, we are in our final month here, our final push for our $10,000 goal to meet our goal to end our year. So I want to remind our listeners to go to foiradio.org to help us really close the year confidently as we enter into 2020.

Steve Conover:
Thanks Chris and thank you for joining us today on the program. You can call our listener line at (888) 343-6940, again, that's (888) 343-6940. Again, visit our website at foiradio.org, that's foiradio.org. Write to us at FOI radio, PO Box 914 Belmar, New Jersey, 08099, again, that's FOI radio, PO Box 914 Belmar, New Jersey, 08099. Call our Canada office at (888) 664-2584, that's (888) 664-2584 in Canada, and please let us where you're listening when you call or write. Our host and teacher is Chris Katulka. Today's program was produced by Tom Galleon, co-written by Sarah Fern, our theme music was composed and performed by Jeremy Strong. I'm Steve Conover, executive producer. The Friends of Israel today is a production of the Friends of Israel gospel ministry. We are a worldwide Christian ministry, communicating biblical truth about Israel and the Messiah while fostering solidarity with the Jewish people.