Steve Conover: Thank you for joining us for the Friends of Israel Today. I'm Steve Conover. With me is our host and teacher, Chris Katulka. Foiradio.org is where you can connect with us. We have nearly a decade of content on the site featuring Chris Katulka’s insightful teaching and various interview guests. Again, that's foiradio.org.

Chris Katulka: Steve, some of my favorite episodes that we do are our IMG In Depth episodes. That's Israel My Glory, our award-winning Christian magazine. And we're going to talk today with Cameron Joyner. Cameron is one of the writers for Israel My Glory. He also represents the Friends of Israel in our North American Ministries department and he wrote an amazing article titled “Speaking Truth to Power,” which is all about how John the Baptist really took the biblical truth in order to speak to the powers of that time, the Roman powers, even the religious powers of his day in order to speak truth into these moments to bring ultimately the message of the gospel to a lost and broken world. So we're excited to have Cameron on with us today.

Steve Conover: Yeah, so happy to have Cameron with us. But first in the news, with the fall of Bashar Al-Assad, Syria’s future hangs in the balance. Will it be governed by a radical Sunni leader, or be divided up by the multitude of tribes in the region? In the midst of the chaos, Israel has taken action to ensure its security by destroying weapons depots in southern Syria and capturing the Syrian side of Mount Hermon to expand its buffer zone. 

Chris Katulka: Well, here's my take, Steve. Hamas' attack on October 7 started a domino effect weakening Iran's presence in the Middle East. Hamas and Hezbollah leadership and infrastructure are destroyed and now Syria has been ripped from their grip. What's next? Maybe Tehran, but that's up to the Iranian people. 

Chris Katulka: Hi everybody. This is Chris Katulka, host of the Friends of Israel Today Radio program and editorial writer for Israel My Glory magazine. Today I have Cameron Joyner with us. He's the assistant program ministries director for Friends of Israel, and he wrote an article about John the Baptist in our most recent issue of the magazine and it's titled How John the Baptist Confronts the Rulers of His Day. He's going to share about how John the Baptist is speaking to the powers that are around him at that time with truth. But before we get to Cameron, I want to introduce you to Israel My Glory magazine. We're going to have information at the end of the interview on how you can get a one year free subscription to our award-winning Christian magazine, Israel My Glory. So you're going to want to stick around for that. But Cameron, great to have you.

Cameron Joyner: It's good to be here.

Chris Katulka: Alright, so Cameron, we are talking about how John the Baptist confronted the rulers of his day. And I love that you started off with Bob Mankoff, a quote from him which says, “I know everybody wants humor to be subversive and speak truth to power. I don't think power has been listening.” How in the world did you connect this statement, which I don't even know where you found it. That's amazing. I believe he's a Jewish comedian. How did you connect this to John the Baptist? Can you bridge that for us?

Cameron Joyner: Well, he's a Jewish cartoonist and I love Jewish humor. And so the quote really just reminded me of Jewish prophets. They speak truth to power. And like Mankoff said, there's so many examples in scripture where power isn't listening. And you have positive examples like King David. Nathan comes and speaks truth to power. And rather than ‘off with his head,’ he repented, he listened to Nathan. But then you have where power isn't listening and that's often the case. And so two salient examples for me are Elijah and Jeremiah. And interestingly, both of those respectively remind me of John the Baptist and Jesus, and for good reason. John the Baptist comes in the spirit and the power of Elijah. But I love where he goes to Ahab in 1 Kings chapter 18 and Ahab calls him the troubler and he's like, you're the troubler, you and your father's house, you're the reason for the famine. And that takes chutzpah. I mean that takes boldness. And he ends up having this competition and slaying the 400 prophets of Baal and Jezebel's ready to kill him in chapter 19. And it's interesting that when John the Baptist does come and he speaks truth to power to Herod Antipas, his wife Herodias is like a Jezebel type and she ultimately does with John the Baptist what Jezebel wanted to do with Elijah. But Jeremiah, he reminds me of Jesus, Yeshua, the weeping prophet. They both precede this destruction of Jerusalem and they both weep over Jerusalem's destruction and he has to go to King Zedekiah and speak truth to power.

And he tells him, “if you surrender, your family will be spared.” And if you look at the very next chapter in Jeremiah chapter 38 and 39, it's in 39 where what Jeremiah told him in 38 comes to pass where his children are slain and his eyes are put out and he's carried off. So he didn't listen. And it’s no wonder Jesus said in Luke 13:33, that “it's not fitting that a prophet should die outside of Jerusalem.” All of these prophets who have been persecuted by the powers that be in Israel, they're pointing to the Messiah. He speaks truth to power all throughout Holy Week to the religious leaders in the temple day in and day out. And then he goes before the high priest and Herod Antipas, the same one that had John executed, and then he goes to Pilate himself. And so we all know how that worked out, but he never wavered on the truth.

Chris Katulka: When you're talking about speaking truth to power, my mind goes to the powerful elite of the world, that kind of thing. But what's going on in especially the gospels is that Jesus is less concerned with the powerful elite. And John the Baptist is less concerned with the powerful elite of the Roman society and more concerned with the religious elite of his day. And Isaiah's prophecy actually describes a preparing for the way of the Lord leveling the playing field for all people. How did John the Baptist message of repentance challenge both the religious elite like the Pharisees and the political powers of his time?

Cameron Joyner: So I'll start with the political because I don't want to spend a lot of time on them. They treated religion like a check in the box. Go to Israel today and especially Herod the Great, his fingerprints are all over Israel. That's why he's called “the Great” because he's a builder. It's very evident that he knows how to appeal to Jewish sensibilities, religious sensibilities, but then also pagan Rome. And so these families, the Idumaeans from Edom, they're sacrificing at the temple as a check in the box. “If God is there, I'm covered.” And we could learn something about that as well. But they didn't really seem to have a concern with the actual inward heart change that has to take place. But the same thing for the religious rulers. I mean the Pharisees, they're slightly different than the political leaders. They actually believe they have a relationship with the God of Israel. They've reinvented Judaism and taken Torah to another level on the return from Babylon. And so for this ascetic, this guy in the wilderness to come along and say, “you need to repent,” despite all their piety and everything that they do to please God and look good to people, it was a shock to them and to the crowds that admired them that they had to repent. That even the religious leaders on the inside, they had no heart. They did not have a circumcised heart, as Moses says in Deuteronomy.

Chris Katulka: And the Pharisees in Matthew's account were actually going down to get some of the Pharisees were going down to get baptized and to repent for the forgiveness of sins and to show their dedication to what John the Baptist was leading the way for pointing to Christ ultimately. But even some of the Pharisees…I'm not saying all of them, but some of them were seeing the value of what John the Baptist was doing.

Cameron Joyner: That's right, yeah.

Chris Katulka: And so it's interesting because when we talk about this concept of repentance and forgiveness, it always makes me think about the idea that God wanted to have a covenantal relationship with Israel. That's what this is all about. I always think when you're speaking truth to power, the amazing thing about what John the Baptist, and I believe Jesus were doing, was everybody's mind is on what the powerful elite are doing.

Where Jesus was more concerned about his people's heart. John the Baptist was more concerned about his people's heart and how they related with the Lord to keep that covenantal relationship, that God wanted to use his people to bring blessings to all the families of the earth.

And In that covenantal relationship, it wasn't about Rome, it wasn't about the elite or powerful, God's going to deal with them. He was concerned with his people to fulfill the purpose. And so John the Baptist actually comes out with some kind of fiery denunciations, even calling some religious leaders, “you brood of vipers.” What was the significance of his message to the religious elite and why did it really cause that stir that we see in the gospels?

Cameron Joyner: I think that the severity, the consequence of following their teaching merited the stern language. First they're teaching that all Israel would have a place in the kingdom to come, the Olam ha-ba, Messiah's Kingdom. They actually taught this myth that Abraham sat at the gates of hell, of Gehenna, and would turn away Israelites. And that's not true. And I believe that's why Jesus tells the story later in Luke 16 about the rich man and Lazarus. It really confronts that notion. And so the implications of teaching people that you're good, you're an Israelite, you're good just on the merits of Abraham, you don't have to worry about anything. You don't need what he's teaching, that has severe consequences for the people. And so he teaches repentance and Jesus teaches repentance and it really confronts their theology about being good for the kingdom already. And another thing that’s interesting is that rejecting the message ultimately led to the dispersion. And we don't rejoice in that. It's a sad fact of history, of Jewish history. But it's interesting that in Judaism today, which Judaism today is Talmudic Judaism. It's inherited from the Pharisees. And they believe that the further back you go in history, the more holy the sages are. Well, if they were so holy, if they were so righteous and in a right relationship with God, considering what Leviticus 26 says, why the dispersion? Why did it happen? And you can't just say, “Well, maybe the people weren't obedient.” Actually Ezekiel 34 says, “it's the leaders, the shepherds who weren't sparing the flock that led to the scattering of the sheep of Israel.” So John has all of this reason to come out with stern language for the leadership because they're the ones who are going to lead Israel astray if the message of repentance isn't heard.

Steve Conover: Our Jewish friends in Israel and all around the world continue to feel the unwanted spotlight of hatred that antisemitism is cast on them. Which is why during Hanukkah this year we can join together to show them they're not alone.

Chris Katulka: That's right. This Hanukkah season, the Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry is calling on you, Christians worldwide, to show their support for Israel and the Jewish people by placing a candle in your windowsills on the first night of Hanukkah, December 25th, and keeping it lit through sundown on January 2nd, all to show honor to the Jewish community and to stand in solidarity with Israel.

Steve Conover: I love this idea, Chris, a lit candle in every Christian home across America from December 25th through January 2nd, will send an unmistakable message of hope and support to Israel during these difficult times. You can text in your photos or tag us online. We did this last year and it was wonderful to see all of your pictures.

Chris Katulka: I agree, Steve. Friends, you can go right now to foi.org/shine to download a free sign to print and place in your window along with a candle to show your support. This Christmas at sundown when Hanukkah begins, we hope you will join us in showing solidarity with Israel. Learn more at foi.org/shine. Again, that's foi.org/shine. 

Chris Katulka: That concept of the shepherds of Israel, Jesus speaks about the shepherds not literally tending to sheep but tending to the people of Israel. Shepherds were often considered the kings of Israel, the leaders of Israel. That's why Jesus says, “I'm the Good Shepherd.” He speaks specifically, ‘I'm basically saying I'm the good King, I'm the good ruler. All the other ones have failed you. You can look to me. I care about you personally.’ And John the Baptist is the one preparing the way for that. And again, you were talking earlier about Herod Antipas, and so despite his political power, he actually seemed to be torn about John the Baptist, fearing and protecting him even at times. Can you explain some of the complexities in their relationship and how ultimately it led to John the Baptist’s imprisonment and even death?

Cameron Joyner: So I think Herod is torn between these two extremes of his personality and his position. He's human. He's torn between his humanity and his position. And I'm not saying humanity in the sense that he's a humane person, a good character. I'm saying that as humans, we all have eternity in our hearts. Ecclesiastes says that. And we all have to wrestle with the knowledge of the God of Israel once we come across this knowledge and the potential for him to exist and the potential to be judged by him. And so that's human Herod on the one side, but on the other side, he's king, he's ruler in the area and he has to appear tough before the nobility and the people and his own wife. And so he arrests John the Baptist, but at the same time he's intrigued by him. He wants to hear from him. Maybe this is a, he's a holy man. Mark 6 says he acknowledged him as a holy man. Maybe he does have the words of the Creator, the God of Israel, and I need to hear what he has to say. But we all have to make that choice in choosing the God of Israel or not. And he chose foolishly.

Chris Katulka: Yeah, I always think it's interesting because the kingdom is at stake here, John the Baptist is coming because the kingdom is near. And Herod Antipas understood the Jewish kingdom and he also understood a human kingdom. He understood both sides. Like you were saying earlier, the Herodian family played both the Romans and the Jewish people. They stood in that gray line, that middle area. And it's very interesting to think about the fact that Herod was torn between, he understood what the Jewish scriptures taught. That's why he listened to John the Baptist and appreciated him. But at the same time, he was torn by what was going on around him, especially with his wife. And for that reason, he sacrificed John the Baptist as a way to get what he needed for himself, his own selfish ambition. I want to jump really quick to the Pharisees because they kind of reject Jesus and John the Baptist. And what does this tell us about the core message that they were resisting? You keep bringing up this concept of repentance. Could you hash that out a little bit more?

Cameron Joyner: Yeah. So John the Baptist, as the forerunner having to level the playing field, those who are exalted, they're humbled. Those who are in a lowly state, they're lifted up. They have hope. We're not talking about landscaping here. These are people, that Isaiah is predicting. And so they both bring this message of repentance and the baton passes eventually from John the Baptist to Jesus Yeshua. So the core message is repentance, and that automatically confronts our human pride. It confronted the pride of the religious elite, the Pharisees and the Sadducees. But it is not just them. By saying, “we need to repent,” we're being told we're wrong. And so this is the original sin, pride, that came with Satan and ultimately the fall of mankind in Eden. And we've remade God in our own image out of pride. Time and time again throughout history. And so they remade the Messiah in his own image. A Messiah that comes and says,” you're wrong,” isn't desirable. “Repent.” They want a Messiah that is not divine but a human, but a king like David, a conqueror, but one that affirms this religious system. They wanted to be affirmed and commended for being Torah scholars and these righteous people. And they wanted to see this king come and acknowledge that and destroy the Romans at the same time.

Chris Katulka: That's right.

Cameron Joyner: But that didn't happen. Not only did he not destroy the Romans, he actually came to conquer sin first. We know that. Not only did he not deal with Rome directly yet, he didn't affirm their system. He didn't affirm their righteousness. What Paul says in chapter 10 is establishing our own righteousness, their own righteousness, and not knowing the righteousness of God. So that was why the message was rejected because you have to recognize the righteousness of God and forsake this concept of establishing our own righteousness.

Chris Katulka: I want to broaden this out a little bit and talk about the message of John the Baptist and kind of import it into our 21st century. We've got a political season going on. Politics. We've got global elite around us. We've got religious elite around us. What's the message of John the Baptist for us as Christians? How should we approach the world that's around us and speak truth to power?

Cameron Joyner: Well, number one, every person still has to repent. It doesn't matter if you are Franklin Graham, whom I really admire, but he's considered a religious figure. We would say maybe religious elite in our country. It doesn't matter if you're President Trump, you're President Biden, or if you're Vice President Harris, it doesn't matter. We all are human. We're all on a level playing field before a holy and righteous God. And we all have to repent. And the second thing is, is that the message still faces opposition. Some people like to use it to their advantage and gain favor, but there's still the temptation to oppose it. And I've been guilty of opposing this message before I came to faith. So it's by God's grace that I've been forgiven. And so there's still hope for everybody, whether you're in the upper echelons of society or whether you're in the poorer class. And no matter what country, we're all human. We all have to repent. And I think it's very sad what happened with President Trump, the assassination attempt. But one good thing that could come out of that is that he even recognizes, I'm human. One day, I have to stand before the Lord. President Biden, his health isn't so good. We're supposed to pray for these leaders, pray that they come to know the Lord as well. But it starts with repentance.

Chris Katulka: I always think it's interesting. There's the law of the kings in Deuteronomy chapter 17, and each Israelite king was required to write the law out by hand. And then God gives the reason for that. It's so that the king wouldn't elevate himself or think of himself greater than the Israelites. That he would actually be on a level playing field speaking truth to power, that when he would think about the law of God, he would actually think about the hearts of his people, the wisdom to lead his people because it's not about his power, it's about directing God's people to his truth. And so even God was putting checks and balances to the kings on speaking truth to power. And so Cameron, I want to thank you so much for sharing about John the Baptist and really looking at it from a very interesting perspective that I think applies to our lives today and how we live as Christians. I really appreciate it.

Cameron Joyner: Thank you.

Chris Katulka: Now listen, if you want to get your copy of Israel My Glory, you've never subscribed to our award-winning Christian magazine, Israel My Glory, this is your opportunity. You can actually go to israelmyglory.org/subscribe, and there you can get a one year free subscription to our award-winning Christian magazine. And you can either get our print edition or you can get our digital edition, which will give you 45 years of Israel My Glory content. Again, that's going to israelmyglory.org/subscribe. Thank you so much for listening.

Steve Conover: A special thanks to Cameron Joyner for being our guest today, and thank you for joining us for today's episode of The Friends of Israel Today. Chris, where are we headed next week?

Chris Katulka: Yes, going to actually be starting a three-part series on the foundational promise that God made to Abraham. But why does the Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry exist? Well, of course it's because of the passion that we have for God's Word and the compassion for God's Chosen People. But all of that routes back to a promise that God made to Abraham. We call it the Abrahamic Promise, and that's what we're going to be looking at over the next three weeks.

Steve Conover: We hope you'll join us then. Our mailing address is FOI Radio PO Box 914, Bellmawr, New Jersey 08099. Again, that's FOI Radio PO Box 914, Bellmawr, New Jersey 08099. Our web address is foiradio.org. Again, that's foiradio.org or you can call our listener line. That number is 888-343-6940. Again, that's 888-343-6940. Our host and teacher is Chris Katulka. Today's program was produced by Tom Gallione. Edited by Jeremy Strong, who also composed and performs our theme music. And I'm Steve Conover, executive producer. The Friends of Israel Today is a production of The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry. Passion for God's Word. Compassion for God's Chosen People.